tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post8583264006820226780..comments2022-11-11T00:56:30.446-08:00Comments on Concordia | The Lutheran Confessions: Roundtable 10: BaptismRev. Paul T. McCainhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-48396330631276216852007-04-30T11:26:00.000-07:002007-04-30T11:26:00.000-07:00I think I have may have Paul confused with another...I think I have may have Paul confused with another McCain of years past at 801 DeMunn. Sorry 'bout that.Long Haulerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440133910816035394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-90631881438507588282007-04-18T13:48:00.000-07:002007-04-18T13:48:00.000-07:00Just some musings spawned by this blog. John 3:5 h...Just some musings spawned by this blog. John 3:5 has suffered from a paucity of wider-context exegesis in general discussions. I like the CEV translation which brings out emphasis which I believe the orginal intends. That wider context includes the O.T. purification rites linked by LXX's usage to Noah's flood, Moses and the parting of the Red Sea, cleansings of Isaiah and Ezekiel, and other Long Haulerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440133910816035394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-91925777345860028362007-03-27T15:00:00.000-07:002007-03-27T15:00:00.000-07:00I've never been very comfortable with the practice...I've never been very comfortable with the practice that developed in the Early Church of delaying baptism until a two year catechesis process was finished. It doesn't seem to square with Acts 8 and how baptism was administered after a somewhat brief catechesis.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-77957435107076853752007-03-26T14:20:00.000-07:002007-03-26T14:20:00.000-07:00Steven,I view the Early Church's concept of a "bap...Steven,<BR/><BR/>I view the Early Church's concept of a "baptism of blood" as a poetic early recognition of the fact that although Baptism saves, God will save faithful believers without it too, if the need arises.<BR/><BR/>The belief arose from situations (which happened sometimes during the Roman persecutions) in which catechumens were put to death for confessing Christ. Sometimes these Eric Phillipshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00234407421710211220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-83305273120770373872007-03-25T16:12:00.000-07:002007-03-25T16:12:00.000-07:00Actually, the Baptists don't exactly eschew baptis...Actually, the Baptists don't exactly eschew baptism, but instead hold it as the symbol of a faith already received. They do hold it as sacred, in a way. God commands it, so it MUST be done, even though they would say that it is "merely a symbol." Baptism often soon follows an altar call. Someone "gives their life to Jesus" and then makes that confession official in a baptism that soon followsRPWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16686240798146992394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-76473927087034986042007-03-24T23:55:00.000-07:002007-03-24T23:55:00.000-07:00This may not be the place for this, but what is y'...This may not be the place for this, but what is y'all's opinion of the Early Church Father's view "that the place of baptism is sometimes supplied by martyrdom"? It is included in Pastor Weedon's quote from St. Augustine.<BR/><BR/>Here is a similar statement from St. Cyril Of Jerusalem:<BR/><BR/><I>If any man receive not Baptism, he has not salvation; except only Martyrs, who even without the Steven G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05333100501666545305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-56661897865494771742007-03-24T07:10:00.000-07:002007-03-24T07:10:00.000-07:00It is a weird twist of circumstances, is it not, t...It is a weird twist of circumstances, is it not, that the church body that eschews Baptism as, in any way, a means of grace, or actually an act of God's love toward us, derives their name from the Sacrament they reject? I'm referring, of course, to the Baptists. Tragic and sad.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-39082207796450957452007-03-23T20:23:00.000-07:002007-03-23T20:23:00.000-07:00My answer to this question:How do we avoid speakin...My answer to this question:<BR/><BR/>How do we avoid speaking of Baptism and the Lord's Supper in such a way that finally would tend to relegate them to "nice, but not really necessary or finally all that important" status? <BR/><BR/>By stating that through Baptism and the Lord's Supper as well as through the Oral Word (this includes Absolution) Christ salvation is given. Prenter makes a comment Steven G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05333100501666545305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-65817603160941554482007-03-22T14:02:00.000-07:002007-03-22T14:02:00.000-07:00I've often wondered about what the early church pr...I've often wondered about what the early church practice was with regard to children born to parents who were already baptized. I've never found anything definitive. Any fruits of your labors would be most welcome, either here or by private email.<BR/><BR/>I personally would love to gather up baptisms for the Vigil, and do whenever possible. But in my thinking this practice still stands in WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-9955640262503246442007-03-21T18:59:00.000-07:002007-03-21T18:59:00.000-07:00What I have found striking is that the notion of b...What I have found striking is that the notion of baptism as soon after birth as possible really was apparently only a couple centuries old at the time of Luther. If you've had the joy of Fisher's *Christian Initiation in the Medieval West* he gives the goods on the standard practice for CENTURIES being holding off Baptisms until vigil of Easter or Pentecost. Thus a child born in July, say, William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-8937653998975208352007-03-21T18:53:00.000-07:002007-03-21T18:53:00.000-07:00Another way we constantly negate our confession of...Another way we constantly negate our confession of Holy Baptism's "Gospel necessity" is the time elapsed between a child's birth and his or her Baptism. I'm amazed at how much the family bash takes over from the gift of regeneration and renewal in Holy Baptism. First available Sunday after the birth, I say. Sooner when in doubt.WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-38644326496579722502007-03-21T17:38:00.000-07:002007-03-21T17:38:00.000-07:00Re. the photo. I found it on a Lutheran blog site,...Re. the photo. I found it on a Lutheran blog site, but I strongly suspect it is a Roman Catholic priest in a RC Church. They really have beautiful baptistry: multi-purpose both for adults and infants, some with a "step down into the little pool" feature that would permit a sort of emersion. Very nice. I hear you about the "not enough water to boil an egg in" situations.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-3928077187736032202007-03-21T13:19:00.000-07:002007-03-21T13:19:00.000-07:00Rev. McCain asks,> How do we avoid speaking of Bap...Rev. McCain asks,<BR/><BR/>> How do we avoid speaking of Baptism and <BR/>> the Lord's Supper in such a way that finally <BR/>> would tend to relegate them to "nice, but<BR/>> not really necessary or finally all that <BR/>> important" status? <BR/><BR/>We need to be clear that in the Sacraments, God is actually _giving_ us the very things we believe He will.<BR/><BR/>The unbaptized can believe Eric Phillipshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00234407421710211220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-31514175560572755352007-03-21T13:09:00.000-07:002007-03-21T13:09:00.000-07:00Nice font in the picture that accompanies the orig...Nice font in the picture that accompanies the original post, by the way. Is that a Lutheran church depicted? Most of us don't have enough water to boil an egg. I had two baptisms on Sunday and had to refill the font between them. (Of course, I always make sure the carpet gets good and wet.)WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-46894106973677746672007-03-21T06:47:00.000-07:002007-03-21T06:47:00.000-07:00I think the key is to deal with things as they are...I think the key is to deal with things as they are. Where Baptism is possible, it is to be extolled in highest measure. Where Baptism is not possible, ie no water or the person dies prior to receiving Baptism, then we have nothing to say regarding Baptism. Luther was particularly helpful in this regard when consoling the mother of a stillborn child. He could still proclaim the mercy of God inWM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-28030232570050194932007-03-21T04:37:00.000-07:002007-03-21T04:37:00.000-07:00I certainly agree that it is the Word of God that...I certainly agree that it is the Word of God that gives Baptism it's saving grace and efficacy, but, how do we maintain that truth and avoid appearing to regard the Sacraments as merely nice "extras," but in the end of no significant necessity.<BR/><BR/>Baptism, even for adults who already have faith, still is what Baptism is, according to the Scriptures. It is no less a washing of generation, Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-73198779207600461482007-03-21T01:46:00.000-07:002007-03-21T01:46:00.000-07:00We receive in Baptism the same Word that Christ sp...We receive in Baptism the same Word that Christ spoke to thief on the cross. It is the Word that gives Baptism its efficacy. It was necessary for the thief to hear the "for you" from Christ just as it is necessary for us and our children to hear the "for you" from Christ in our baptism. How else are we to have faith if there is no promise! <BR/><BR/>I agree with St. Augustine "but the want is Steven G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05333100501666545305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-90854079616873754032007-03-20T15:19:00.000-07:002007-03-20T15:19:00.000-07:00I suppose that was a paraphrase. Here's the secti...I suppose that was a paraphrase. Here's the section from Book IV, chapter 22 of his treatise on Baptism:<BR/><BR/>30. That the place of baptism is sometimes supplied by martyrdom is supported by an argument by no means trivial, which the blessed Cyprian adduces from the thief, to whom, though he was not baptized, it was yet said, "Today shall you be with me in Paradise." Luke 23:43 On William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-35406626964854968602007-03-20T15:15:00.000-07:002007-03-20T15:15:00.000-07:00Wasn't it St. Augustine who put it like this: Not...Wasn't it St. Augustine who put it like this: Not the lack, but the contempt of Baptism, damns?William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-47953642424035261932007-03-20T14:15:00.000-07:002007-03-20T14:15:00.000-07:00I think we gravitate to the "exceptions" in part a...I think we gravitate to the "exceptions" in part at least, to test the parameters of our theology. While the exception does not make the rule, the exception tests the underlying principles on which the rule rests. The word "necessity" in the locus on Baptism introduces a potential for saying, "whoever is not baptized cannot be saved." Hence the later orthodox Lutheran qualification of "WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-1159674888417850612007-03-20T14:04:00.000-07:002007-03-20T14:04:00.000-07:00A rush to the "exceptions" in baptism is just anot...A rush to the "exceptions" in baptism is just another example of how quickly sinful man looks for legalistic ways to rebel against God's clearly defined will.<BR/><BR/>To me, the important thing to remember is that God's instructions to man define what man is to do or not do. They are not handcuffs placed on God.<BR/><BR/>When God lays out the requirment of baptism, we should obey it without Mike Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09202275259518132834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-62525101253287985652007-03-20T11:41:00.000-07:002007-03-20T11:41:00.000-07:00I imagine that Lutherans have a notion of an "exce...I imagine that Lutherans have a notion of an "exception clause" to the necessity of baptism just as we Catholics do (we call it baptism of desire, which was mentioned even at Trent).<BR/><BR/>Perhaps Lutherans (like us) would say that baptism is the <I>normative</I> means of regeneration (and/or salvation), but in some extraordinary cases of inability of access (the thief on the cross being the Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-83921779546398029432007-03-20T09:21:00.000-07:002007-03-20T09:21:00.000-07:00I don't find it strange at all that discussions of...I don't find it strange at all that discussions of Baptism "almost immediately run to the exceptions." We're living in a country where a large percentage of those who have faith in Christ either have not been baptized yet, or consider themselves to have "been saved" for years before they were baptized. So we can't help being aware what it sounds like to them when we say that Baptism is Eric Phillipshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00234407421710211220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-38874474222996348322007-03-20T05:51:00.000-07:002007-03-20T05:51:00.000-07:00By the way, the Swedish 1529 rite (which is an int...By the way, the Swedish 1529 rite (which is an interesting via media between Luther's 1523 and 1526) retained the salt, with the provision that it did not need to be exorcised, being already a good creature of God. <BR/><BR/>The salt in the Baptismal rites is connected with "wisdom" - and I think this is not opposed to the offering language, for that is exactly what wisdom is: a life offered inWilliam Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-24529390759357355382007-03-19T22:47:00.000-07:002007-03-19T22:47:00.000-07:00The German is überantworten, to surrender, deliver...The German is <I>überantworten</I>, to surrender, deliver up. The Latin is <I>offero</I>, to offer.<BR/><BR/>I never connected the salt in the ancient rites with this, but what brother Weedon says makes perfectly good liturgical sense.WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.com