tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post4810042822838783509..comments2022-11-11T00:56:30.446-08:00Comments on Concordia | The Lutheran Confessions: Roundtable 9: What the Church IsRev. Paul T. McCainhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-18044621343347676162007-03-16T07:37:00.000-07:002007-03-16T07:37:00.000-07:00While we are venerating the resting Dr. Marquart, ...While we are venerating the resting Dr. Marquart, I'll chime in to add that there were 4 books that defined my Seminary education: (in order of encounter)<BR/><BR/>1. The Book of Concord<BR/>2. On Being a Theologian of the Cross (Luther via Forde)<BR/>3. The Quest for Holiness (Koeberle)<BR/>4. The Church (Marquart)<BR/><BR/>That's fine company!RevFiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06019695047249137807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-79334600875172610662007-03-14T14:04:00.001-07:002007-03-14T14:04:00.001-07:00The question, as I understood it, was framed aroun...The question, as I understood it, was framed around whether the Church "existed" only as it was gathered, or whether its "existence" was defined in terms of the visible gathering around the Word. <BR/><BR/>What I understand brother William saying, and what I also see the Confessions saying, is that the Church always "exists" in union with Christ her Head, but that existence is made visible by WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-92221422042892304862007-03-14T14:04:00.000-07:002007-03-14T14:04:00.000-07:00Professor Kurt Marquart, may He rest in peace, was...Professor Kurt Marquart, may He rest in peace, was fond of reminding us that God and His saints are merely in another dimension of reality, not beyond it. I was always, and remain intrigued by, his keen insights. When He spoke on these issues you could in fact nearly see these realities, so beautifully and eloquently he described them.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-83240906019064163102007-03-14T13:12:00.000-07:002007-03-14T13:12:00.000-07:00Paul,One more thought. To show what an utterly cl...Paul,<BR/><BR/>One more thought. To show what an utterly clear grip the Apostle had on this whole notion, think of how he could tell the ladies to cover their heads. Why? Well, we wouldn't want to be offending the angels. Or how he can tell the Corinthians to excommunicate that man: "when you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus *and my spirit is present*, with the power of our Lord William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-8816605482410349402007-03-14T13:04:00.000-07:002007-03-14T13:04:00.000-07:00Paul,Not wrong at all. That's it exactly. Look a...Paul,<BR/><BR/>Not wrong at all. That's it exactly. Look at the gathered assembly and you are looking at as much of the Church as can ever be visible this side of eternity. And yet the utterly cool thing is that what is visible is put the tiniest portion of what is actually there. Hebrews 12, dude. Angels and the spirits of the just made perfect and all gathered around that Lamb whose blood William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-5473892776095979512007-03-14T10:30:00.000-07:002007-03-14T10:30:00.000-07:00So, is it so bad to talk about the Church becoming...So, is it so bad to talk about the Church becoming visible when people are gathered around Word and Sacrament? I still am enjoying Dr. Nagel's "And where does this invisible Church worship?" quip.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-46599742499085621272007-03-14T08:00:00.000-07:002007-03-14T08:00:00.000-07:00Again, we're on the same page, paragraph, and line...Again, we're on the same page, paragraph, and line number, William. (I'm starting to worry here!)<BR/><BR/>You can see how the choice of words is so important here. The Gospel and sacraments are the "marks of recognition" (Kennzeichen) of the church (or Church, as Weedon likes to put it). As such, they manifest the Church's presence at various times and places. The Church in its essence is a WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-67673092143526527222007-03-13T14:18:00.000-07:002007-03-13T14:18:00.000-07:00Now, Mike, I think Dr. Seuss is VERY profound, and...Now, Mike, I think Dr. Seuss is VERY profound, and to top it off - he was a Lutheran! So if you're at the level of Seuss you are doing fine. :)<BR/><BR/>One thing that my friend Christopher Jones alerted me to is that sometimes the way we speak of Church makes it sound as though the Church pops into and out of existence with the Divine Service - and that's nonsense, of course. The Divine William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-27272989666231488702007-03-13T09:04:00.000-07:002007-03-13T09:04:00.000-07:00So for those of us who are more at the comprehensi...So for those of us who are more at the comprehension speed of Dr Seuss than Dr Luther...<BR/><BR/>Would it be proper to say that the existance of the church is defined by the presence of God?<BR/><BR/>Where the Holy Spirit is present in the faith of the believers, and at baptism, and the preaching of the Word, there is the church. Where Christ is truly present in the Holy Supper, there is the Mike Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09202275259518132834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-39209034690097816662007-03-11T07:51:00.000-07:002007-03-11T07:51:00.000-07:00In the original Donatist controversy, the issue wa...In the original Donatist controversy, the issue was clergy who betrayed their office under persecution, not their bad morals. This is not to say that the sacraments are effected by the morality of the administrators, but as scandals in the church repeatedly teach us, the office is greatly harmed and undermined by bad behavior on the part of pastors. With very good reason did the apostle Paul WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-36900890508306469012007-03-10T14:40:00.000-08:002007-03-10T14:40:00.000-08:00I was talking with a friend the other day about pa...I was talking with a friend the other day about pastors who are in fact evil men and how very, very difficult it is for people to receive their ministry. I think that is an understandable reaction. I do not believe this article should be any sort of "excuse" for the Church tolerating manifest and offensively sinful conduct among its clergy rank. St. Paul makes it very clear what the standards areRev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-90208214135506348492007-03-10T14:30:00.000-08:002007-03-10T14:30:00.000-08:00In Concordia, second edition, the text shows both ...In Concordia, second edition, the text shows both the Latin and the German for the "more than" or "above." <BR/><BR/>At first we were told to remove the "more than" but after we prepared a study showing that one of the meanings of the word "supra" is clearly also "more than" and that the German "mehr denn" is clearly "more than" we were permitted at least to show the reader what the authoritativeRev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-26466616418429406092007-03-10T12:53:00.000-08:002007-03-10T12:53:00.000-08:00Please note: I have corrected my quotation from T...<I>Please note: I have corrected my quotation from Tappert in the original post. I left out the phrase "since in this life." My apologies.</I>WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-78709645899206996852007-03-10T12:31:00.000-08:002007-03-10T12:31:00.000-08:00Nicely put, Brother William! I have found in my o...Nicely put, Brother William! I have found in my own conversations with Orthodox and Roman Catholic Christians that their view of "church" is much more static and institutional rather than the dynamic view of the Lutheran Confessions.<BR/><BR/>I would only add that an "eschatological perspective" has both a <I>now</I> and a <I>not yet</I> component. I would say that the Lutheran Confessions WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-56252511357750411012007-03-10T10:33:00.000-08:002007-03-10T10:33:00.000-08:00Also, a problem arises (and sometimes I think Walt...Also, a problem arises (and sometimes I think Walther is guilty of this) when "the Church" is defined over against "the Predigtamt" as though the Church were the laity exclusive of those in the Office. It's the inverse problem of Rome - where the Church IS the hierarchy. Thus the nonsense translation of "super" as "above" - the Church is above the clergy - in Tractatus 11, which then has the William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-23043033501352102602007-03-10T09:59:00.000-08:002007-03-10T09:59:00.000-08:00My dear sister-in-law, who is Orthodox, is the fir...My dear sister-in-law, who is Orthodox, is the first one to point out to me what should have been plain as the nose on my face (which is pretty plain, let me tell you):<BR/><BR/>The Lutherans use the word "church" in a different manner than the Orthodox do.<BR/><BR/>So half of the discussions between the two about "the Church" totally miss each other. And the Lutheran definition of Church is William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-41209377540176345412007-03-10T04:58:00.000-08:002007-03-10T04:58:00.000-08:00What has always really impressed me as I read the ...What has always really impressed me as I read the Book of Concord is how pastoral, practical and personal it is. Let me explain.<BR/><BR/>It is pastoral because the constant drum beat throughout is the issue of the comfort and care of souls. This is not a book of theological speculations or abstraction. The times in which it was written called for pastoral care on a scale that could only be Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.com