tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post4203287079371204736..comments2022-11-11T00:56:30.446-08:00Comments on Concordia | The Lutheran Confessions: Roundtable 5: The Son of GodRev. Paul T. McCainhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-22422244151955255782007-02-13T19:23:00.000-08:002007-02-13T19:23:00.000-08:00Robert's comments remind me of something I read fr...Robert's comments remind me of something I read from Sasse, who noted that the East and the West have different starting points with respect to the Trinity. The East begins with the trinity of divine Persons while the West begins with the unity of the divine Essence. Where you start will determine where you end up, I suppose. In the paradox of God's tri-unity, one has to begin somewhere.<BR/><WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-61450919798288549052007-02-11T15:54:00.000-08:002007-02-11T15:54:00.000-08:00Robert,I agree with your revised assessment: a di...Robert,<BR/><BR/>I agree with your revised assessment: a different conception of God. I've given a lot of thought over the years to your fight for the filioque (you know what I mean) and I think it has great merit. <BR/><BR/>What seems wrong to me is the notion that the Augustinian way of speaking the Trinity (which you espouse) and the Eastern way of the Cappadocians (finding the unity in theWilliam Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-23146091534236884442007-02-11T14:30:00.000-08:002007-02-11T14:30:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-81446085652482755242007-02-09T17:19:00.000-08:002007-02-09T17:19:00.000-08:00I'd like to take up a small thing with William (ra...I'd like to take up a small thing with William (rather than Bill) -- "Oh, you can call me Willliam, and you can call me Will ...." My father, whose first name of William became my middle name, used to say that sing-song nonsense all the time. Anyway, now that I found out that the Paul figure takes up his scissors upon occasion on edits our contributions, I better get to the point.<BR/><BR/>I Rev. Fr. Robert W. Schaibleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01009767630950002850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-43727315915883913632007-02-09T09:49:00.000-08:002007-02-09T09:49:00.000-08:00Also...With respect to attributing the procession ...Also...<BR/><BR/>With respect to attributing the procession to the Son, how the East distinguishes between ontological and economic procession may not have been on the minds of the Reformers. My thought with respect to the significance to this little clause is how closely the Reformers are simply repeating what the Church confesses in the Creeds.Rev. Ryan Foutshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15608412790780631961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-189238263780735072007-02-09T09:44:00.000-08:002007-02-09T09:44:00.000-08:00Helpful thoughts...I have mixed thoughts on how to...Helpful thoughts...<BR/><BR/>I have mixed thoughts on how to take "der reinen Jungfrau Maria." It would be an interesting "phrase" study in 16th Century German. If it were to be understood in the sense of "pure," the idea would probably be that she had been preserved from sin. If, however, it is taken as "chaste" it might simply be there to clarify what could be somewhat ambiguous in the Rev. Ryan Foutshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15608412790780631961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-91826955033166955622007-02-09T09:04:00.000-08:002007-02-09T09:04:00.000-08:00Denials abound with respect to this article. Not ...Denials abound with respect to this article. Not only the immaculate conception of our Lord, but also His death as an atoning sacrifice, His bodily resurrection, His present reign at the right hand of God; virtually every sentence of the 2nd article of the Creed is diminished or denied in some darkened pulpit of "Christendom."<BR/><BR/>I appreciate Lief Grane's comment on this article: <BR/><BR/WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-36432445137405615902007-02-09T08:55:00.000-08:002007-02-09T08:55:00.000-08:00I grew up in the church (not LCMS) and was a part ...I grew up in the church (not LCMS) and was a part of the music ministry for years. I was in a denomination that adheres to an operating constitution but not a written confession of faith. I heard the Creeds for the first time 25 years later when I became a Lutheran.<BR/><BR/>When my mother overheard me reciting the Apostles Creed, she remembered some of it from when she was a child. It had Mike Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09202275259518132834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-70683657418430685132007-02-09T07:54:00.000-08:002007-02-09T07:54:00.000-08:00Stepping back a moment from our own interests and ...Stepping back a moment from our own interests and issues in this article, I just want to say that we who "naturally" just embrace this material, even as fathers did, as the Roman opponents did, do not fully comprehend the depth to which these fundamental articles of the faith are denied. I am often startled at just how "radical" it is for these orthodox truths to be asserted in the context of Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-42045225329466171202007-02-09T06:57:00.000-08:002007-02-09T06:57:00.000-08:00"With our God it's invariably the case that the re..."With our God it's invariably the case that the reality is not LESS but MORE than the word/images."<BR/><BR/>As long as it's the "more" that's being confessed with the metaphor, I have no problem and speak in precisely the same way, as you know. Some use "metaphor" as an excuse for denial, since all analogies have a melting point, metaphorically speaking.<BR/><BR/>"Rein" means chaste, as in "I WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-54972763020183654092007-02-09T06:28:00.000-08:002007-02-09T06:28:00.000-08:00Ryan,The more I think about it, though, the freigh...Ryan,<BR/><BR/>The more I think about it, though, the freight of "rein" I wouldn't think of as PV, but likely the notion that Mary was preserved from actual sin. Like Luther expounds this in *Personal Prayer Book* AE 43:39,40.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-13831243094693234402007-02-09T06:19:00.000-08:002007-02-09T06:19:00.000-08:00Paul,No, the assumption is a different mystery tha...Paul,<BR/><BR/>No, the assumption is a different mystery than the perpetual virginity. My suggestion, though, is that we leave the PV until we come across the way that teaching plays out in later Symbols. <BR/><BR/>Ryan,<BR/><BR/>But who denies that the Son sends the Spirit? If you were thinking filioque, remember that the East sharply distinguishes between the ontological procession and the William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-19653366820519329952007-02-09T05:04:00.000-08:002007-02-09T05:04:00.000-08:00I'm wondering what the difference between "chaste"...I'm wondering what the difference between "chaste" and "pure" when referring to the Virgin Mary. The "Concordia" edition brings out a nuance in the Formula that other translations do not; apparently, an assumption that Mary remained ever-virgin. Weedon, no doubt, can tell us all about it, and no doubt, will.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-64486885871719966832007-02-08T21:37:00.000-08:002007-02-08T21:37:00.000-08:00"Rein" can be translated "chaste," as it should ha..."Rein" can be translated "chaste," as it should have been here. It's a common usage in German referring to Mary. "Pure" was not the best choice on the part of K/W.<BR/><BR/>Speaking of Palamas, am I imaging things or do I catch a bit of Origen's "fish hook" theory of the atonement, wherein the devil bit on the cross only to be snagged by it?WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-17908030310052136492007-02-08T20:33:00.000-08:002007-02-08T20:33:00.000-08:00William (of the Weedon variety),That last Palamas ...William (of the Weedon variety),<BR/><BR/>That last Palamas quote sure is intriguing. It certainly is interesting that he who is often thought to be the "big" emphasis on the Eastern conception of Theosis would be willing to speak of reconciling the Father to sinners. Fascinating. <BR/><BR/>With regard to the Holy Spirit which William (of the Cwirla variety) aptly discussed in the initial Rev. Ryan Foutshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15608412790780631961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-43601088612835571802007-02-08T18:43:00.000-08:002007-02-08T18:43:00.000-08:00Oh, my aching....(And they called CFW Walther a "c...Oh, my aching....<BR/>(And they called CFW Walther a "citation theologian.")<BR/><BR/>Right you are, brother William, in 2 Cor 5:18-19, "we" and "the world" are reconciled to God in Christ. Brain glitch. They are happening at more frequent intervals.<BR/><BR/>(Hey -how come Weedon gets to be "William" and I'm "Bill"? I'm older than he is. I think I'm going to give myself a cool new name like WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-15960729094913752732007-02-08T17:30:00.000-08:002007-02-08T17:30:00.000-08:00Also, just to add resources to the discussion, it ...Also, just to add resources to the discussion, it is at times asserted that this whole way of speaking was a novelty introduced into the Church by St. Anselm in the Middle Ages and there is a whole school of Orthodoxy (principally surrounding Romanides) that insists that it is a horrific Western corruption of the faith. <BR/><BR/>What is interesting is this list of citations from the Fathers on William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-56678838703121842462007-02-08T17:13:00.000-08:002007-02-08T17:13:00.000-08:00Ryan,I love the way Pannenberg expounds it - and f...Ryan,<BR/><BR/>I love the way Pannenberg expounds it - and frankly that's most often my own way of preaching and teaching - but I agree that it does give short-shrift to the wrath. For the wrath is not merely divinely passive - but divinely active. And the terror of that wrath, I think, is the only way to understand the terror of our Lord in Gethsemane. He KNOWS what awaits the Sinner before William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-79591066860166789252007-02-08T16:56:00.000-08:002007-02-08T16:56:00.000-08:00Ha! What I meant to say was this:To "be reconcile...Ha! <BR/><BR/>What I meant to say was this:<BR/><BR/>To "be reconciled" is a two-way deal -- you can't have a "one way" reconciliation. If we are reconciled to the Father, then the Father is reconciled to us. The one necessitates the other -- its only that saying "the Father is reconciled to sinners" sounds a bit sticky, if pressed, leaves you wrestling with God hidden.Rev. Ryan Foutshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15608412790780631961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-85516140247495187242007-02-08T15:50:00.000-08:002007-02-08T15:50:00.000-08:00Wow. In the time it took for me to figure out my ...Wow. In the time it took for me to figure out my password, Fouts writes a dissertation. I have no idea what brother Fouts is talking about, but it sure sounds good. It reminds me of a quote by Chesterton: "When I wanted to impress the theologians, I said something not even I understood."<BR/><BR/>"Interesting though that in 2 Cor, it is the world that God reconciles to Himself (not Himself toWM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-3738890991796834432007-02-08T15:28:00.000-08:002007-02-08T15:28:00.000-08:00I believe that we are talking about two different ...I believe that we are talking about two different portions of the same reconciliation.<BR/><BR/>I agree with william and wcwirla that we are reconciled to God by Christ's sacrifice. In this case making us the subject of the reconciliation is entirely appropriate. We do nothing, God does everything. It would follow that we are the ones being reconciled because we are the ones at fault.<BR/><BR/Mike Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09202275259518132834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-40101161096360338942007-02-08T15:23:00.000-08:002007-02-08T15:23:00.000-08:00Wolfhart Pannenberg makes the same equivocation in...Wolfhart Pannenberg makes the same equivocation in his Systematic Theology (vol. 2, I think). With Pannenberg, though, it seems (in my opinion) that his problem is that his soteriology, defined primarily in terms of participating in the Trinitarian life of God as "sons" in filial trust with the Father through our adoption as "sons" in the Spirit, is motivating this move. Similarly, he is Rev. Ryan Foutshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15608412790780631961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-78601227004634994342007-02-08T12:35:00.000-08:002007-02-08T12:35:00.000-08:00Interesting though that in 2 Cor, it is the world ...Interesting though that in 2 Cor, it is the world that God reconciles to Himself (not Himself to the world), and similarly in the Victimae Paschali:<BR/><BR/>"reconciling sinners to the Father"<BR/><BR/>Not<BR/><BR/>"reconciling the Father to sinners."<BR/><BR/>But I agree the key is in Law/Gospel, and I'd also suggest in the fact that the Law is NOT God's opus proprium; the weight rests solidly William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-52581640356188222402007-02-08T12:16:00.000-08:002007-02-08T12:16:00.000-08:00I've always simply understood this in terms of 2 C...I've always simply understood this in terms of 2 Corinthians 5:19: "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them..." (also Rom 5:10; Eph 2:16; Col 1:20,22).<BR/><BR/>Again, I believe we've bumped into another both/and paradox, here of God's wrath and His mercy. The previous article spoke of the "eternal wrath of God" under which all are WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-3115501595864161282007-02-08T11:09:00.000-08:002007-02-08T11:09:00.000-08:00I understood "reconcile" in this sense as it refer...I understood "reconcile" in this sense as it refers to the Father's righteous hatred of sin.<BR/><BR/>While it is true that God loves everyone of us, without the sacrifice of Christ there could be no salvation. The payment of sin on the cross "reconciles" our blood guilt in the face of God's perfect holiness. To me, this reconciliation must occur not because the Father is without love or mercy Mike Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09202275259518132834noreply@blogger.com