tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post3307112957661625074..comments2022-11-11T00:56:30.446-08:00Comments on Concordia | The Lutheran Confessions: Roundtable 8: The ChurchRev. Paul T. McCainhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-43864193148151196992007-03-06T09:05:00.000-08:002007-03-06T09:05:00.000-08:00My answers to the questions:1. Same way - listen ...My answers to the questions:<BR/><BR/>1. Same way - listen for the Gospel, look for the sacraments. If you were walking down the streets of Ephesus in the 1st century and wanted to know where the Christian church was, they would direct you to a meeting where those were going on.<BR/><BR/>2. Same way - the church, as the mystical union in Christ of all believers everywhere at all times and WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-57674400160041120762007-03-06T08:42:00.000-08:002007-03-06T08:42:00.000-08:00[This is the same "Mike" that posted earlier in th...[This is the same "Mike" that posted earlier in the thread. After reading Rev Cwirla's recent paper on Cyberbrethren, I have adjusted my "avatar".]<BR/><BR/>Rev Fouts,<BR/><BR/>Good point on "Hidden/Revealed". I like that explination and it has formed my opinion on the matter. Thank you.<BR/><BR/>And now, a few stupid questions for the table:<BR/><BR/>1. Where could the Church be found prior Mike Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09202275259518132834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-3469938124029315062007-03-06T06:39:00.000-08:002007-03-06T06:39:00.000-08:00I think it's quite possible to see/hear where and ...I think it's quite possible to see/hear where and when the Gospel is preached purely and the sacraments administered rightly. If that were not possible, these would not be "recognition marks." What I'm saying is that some measure of error will always be present, given that these marks are in the hands of fallible men. Hence the notion that there is a "true visible church" that possesses these WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-26269610725665178672007-03-05T16:29:00.000-08:002007-03-05T16:29:00.000-08:00Pastor Cwirla, do you think it really is impossibl...Pastor Cwirla, do you think it really is impossible to say where the Gospel is purely preached and correctly administered? I can see a problem with overdoing this "quest" for the "true visible Church." Ironically, I've noticed in those who have headed East their quest takes them to the point that they must locate the visible Church using criteria other than the Gospel purely preached and Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-12077793452630350422007-03-05T15:56:00.000-08:002007-03-05T15:56:00.000-08:00Again -- I think the difference (or at least the p...Again -- I think the difference (or at least the preference for hidden/revealed over the visible/invisible language) is in applying these terms to Christ. For Luther, the Church is the body of Christ. That is the Church, the bride, one-in-flesh with Her bridegroom, as she partakes in His Spirit. <BR/><BR/>Thus, where is God at the cross? Is he visible or invisible? Well, you truly see God Rev. Ryan Foutshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15608412790780631961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-6637038118557043572007-03-05T08:52:00.000-08:002007-03-05T08:52:00.000-08:00It seems like hair-splitting to me. Most people I...It seems like hair-splitting to me. Most people I know use "revealed"/"hidden" and "visible"/"invisible" interchangeably. They do not understand the difference in the terms (myself included).<BR/><BR/>After all, if something is visible it has been revealed and if something is invisible it is hidden from us. The only negative I have heard presented against the use of "invisible" has been that Mike Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09202275259518132834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-36298836208444779782007-03-05T07:12:00.000-08:002007-03-05T07:12:00.000-08:00Paul - Inside joke, Irishman, though I actually do...Paul - Inside joke, Irishman, though I actually do believe blog debates to be an exercise in futility.<BR/><BR/>To carry on with this civilized discussion:<BR/><BR/>One problem I see with the concept of a "true visible church" is that once you bite into the notion you are almost bound to set out on a quest to find it. Churches always look better on paper than they do in practice. If absolute WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-37696362766172770022007-03-05T05:55:00.000-08:002007-03-05T05:55:00.000-08:00As I think more about "visibility/invisibility" la...As I think more about "visibility/invisibility" language in regard to the Church and AC VII it strikes me that the problem with "visibility/invisibility" is that it is improperly applied to Church if it is used to try to define what the Church is. Rather, it would seem to me that the terms have more to do with talking about who is, or is not, part of the Church. But Church, as Church, is better Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-43754112843401997552007-03-05T03:15:00.000-08:002007-03-05T03:15:00.000-08:00I think I see the concern motivating some of the r...I think I see the concern motivating some of the remarks. Ironically, I'm saying that AC VII is precisely *not* some speculation about some "invisible" Church whose existence exists only in the realm of theory. But, the use of the terms "purely taught" and "correctly administered" in fact refer to an actual concrete reality in the world. Call that the Church "revealed" or "strictly speaking" or Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-51256484291380481322007-03-04T19:39:00.000-08:002007-03-04T19:39:00.000-08:00I never thought my chapel-brocade red stole could ...I never thought my chapel-brocade red stole could be surpassed with regard to liturgical "bling bling." Alas, I've been out blinged.Rev. Ryan Foutshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15608412790780631961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-35521213574091707992007-03-04T19:21:00.000-08:002007-03-04T19:21:00.000-08:00Your Grace! What a glorious picture!!! You do no...Your Grace! What a glorious picture!!! You do not need to argue. You have only to PRONOUNCE. :)William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-86613287352799490122007-03-04T19:19:00.000-08:002007-03-04T19:19:00.000-08:00I make it my practice not to argue on blogs.I make it my practice not to argue on blogs.WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-16484190555189080032007-03-04T18:51:00.000-08:002007-03-04T18:51:00.000-08:00Ryan,Fascinating about Flacious. About the Nageli...Ryan,<BR/><BR/>Fascinating about Flacious. About the Nagelisms, well, I suspect he's said them in more than one way. As I suspect our Lord spoke his words in slightly different ways at times, reflecting in part the differences among the Gospels.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-73780931053476563692007-03-04T18:34:00.000-08:002007-03-04T18:34:00.000-08:00Ah -- well, so long as "Nagelisms" are not elevate...Ah -- well, so long as "Nagelisms" are not elevated to the status of churchly confessions, I suppose the author is allowed to change them slightly as the occasion warrants. <BR/><BR/>:-)Rev. Ryan Foutshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15608412790780631961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-70369904530734282802007-03-04T18:32:00.000-08:002007-03-04T18:32:00.000-08:00That hope remained in the confessors hearts in var...That hope remained in the confessors hearts in varying degrees. <BR/><BR/>It is quite evident, for example, due to his "provisio" subscription to the Smalcald Articles that Melanchthon held out such hope much longer than Luther. <BR/><BR/>There is some disagreement about this, well after Luther's death as well. <BR/><BR/>Consider, for example, Flacius’ Lenient Propositions (Linde Vorschläge) Rev. Ryan Foutshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15608412790780631961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-80834498549885818112007-03-04T18:25:00.000-08:002007-03-04T18:25:00.000-08:00Ryan,The way I heard him say it was:"Would someone...Ryan,<BR/><BR/>The way I heard him say it was:<BR/><BR/>"Would someone tell me where this invisible church worships?"<BR/><BR/>:)William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-19377421709734543832007-03-04T18:19:00.000-08:002007-03-04T18:19:00.000-08:00Paul,There is definitely a way that these terms ca...Paul,<BR/><BR/>There is definitely a way that these terms can be used profitably -- but even though Walther uses the "visible/invisible" terminology, it seems that it ought to be understood as Luther used these terms in the sense of hidden and revealed. We do have the visible/invisible language in our heritage -- it's just hard to use it today without people thinking that you're getting at it Rev. Ryan Foutshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15608412790780631961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-39489654334866425152007-03-04T18:09:00.000-08:002007-03-04T18:09:00.000-08:00Said another way: Rome first becomes sect in Luth...Said another way: Rome first becomes sect in Lutheran eyes when she has no room in her communion for the Gospel as preached among us and the Sacraments as administered among us. Until that moment arrived, hope remained in the Confessors hearts for Rome herself.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-48598958258505477262007-03-04T18:07:00.000-08:002007-03-04T18:07:00.000-08:00Paul,I would only note that the categories as such...Paul,<BR/><BR/>I would only note that the categories as such are not operative in AC VII. This article is first and foremost about the Una Sancta, and it does tell us how we can locate the Una Sancta in this world, and even more, how the Una Sancta herself continues to EXIST in this world - for she lives from this purely preached Gospel and rightly administered Sacrament. <BR/><BR/>Now, I am William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-88926442568053730572007-03-04T17:58:00.000-08:002007-03-04T17:58:00.000-08:00Before we get too carried away eschewing visible/i...Before we get too carried away eschewing visible/invisible...we would do well to pause and consider that in fact, while the terms may not appear in the Confessions, the concepts are surely there. The Church is not *merely* an association of outward rites and other such ties, but it is that as well. The Church does take form and shape in this world, call that "strictly speaking" and "widely Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-22236907414177621462007-03-04T17:38:00.000-08:002007-03-04T17:38:00.000-08:00Ryan,Amen. And I think that is part of what Melan...Ryan,<BR/><BR/>Amen. And I think that is part of what Melanchthon is driving at in Ap VII/VIII:18 where is speaks of Christ's true Kingdom, Spirit enlivened, "whether it is revealed or covered by the cross." There are times when the Kingdom IS revealed here and now; there are times when the Kingdom is utterly hidden beneath the cross.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-5830514984366393522007-03-04T16:46:00.000-08:002007-03-04T16:46:00.000-08:00Brother William -Amen. Our beloved father in the ...Brother William -<BR/><BR/>Amen. Our beloved father in the faith Kenneth rests from his labors in Jesus, and his works do follow him.<BR/><BR/>Thanks be to Jesus!WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-10552531043116622262007-03-04T16:35:00.000-08:002007-03-04T16:35:00.000-08:00Additionally, while Luther does at times use the "...Additionally, while Luther does at times use the "visible"/"invisible" distinction, it is clear that he does not use it in the way of the Reformed (i.e. how do you know who is elect?). While he sometimes uses those words, he more often prefers to use the distinction between "the church hidden" and "the church revealed." It is a sort of ecclesiastical theologia crucis. There are not "two Rev. Ryan Foutshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15608412790780631961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-55164187694395293962007-03-04T15:22:00.000-08:002007-03-04T15:22:00.000-08:00Bill,And so we both should say in unison:"Thank yo...Bill,<BR/><BR/>And so we both should say in unison:<BR/><BR/>"Thank you, Dr. Korby!"<BR/><BR/>:)William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-81538181625929182742007-03-04T15:07:00.000-08:002007-03-04T15:07:00.000-08:00Fortunately, the phrase "true visible church" does...Fortunately, the phrase "true visible church" does not appear in the Confessions. The visible and audible Word keep the church from being a platonic ideal. (see Apology VII/VIII.20, also Smalcald Articles XII - "sheep who <I>hear</I> the voice of their Shepherd.")WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.com