tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post2939872836027466628..comments2022-11-11T00:56:30.446-08:00Comments on Concordia | The Lutheran Confessions: Roundtable 16: Church CeremoniesRev. Paul T. McCainhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-84913550727803086572007-05-30T07:07:00.000-07:002007-05-30T07:07:00.000-07:00We hear a lot from the Walther that speaks eloquen...We hear a lot from the Walther that speaks eloquently, and quite correctly, about the Biblical doctrine of the royal priesthood of all believers, but we don't hear as much from the Walther that speaks highly of the office of the holy ministry.<BR/><BR/>And the same holds true in matters liturgical. We like the Walther that speaks in defense of the freedom we have to use or not use ceremonies, butRev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-34566093130574226602007-05-23T10:35:00.000-07:002007-05-23T10:35:00.000-07:00To the matter of uniformity in worship practice, h...To the matter of uniformity in worship practice, here is a link to an excellent survey of 3000 LCMS pastors conducted by a CTS grad as an MDiv project: <BR/><BR/>http://mysite.verizon.net/worshipsurvey/index.htm<BR/><BR/>The results speak volumes to what we are discussing here.WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-87396444445184404902007-05-22T18:09:00.000-07:002007-05-22T18:09:00.000-07:00With regard to Pr. Wandrey's comment:It goes back ...With regard to Pr. Wandrey's comment:<BR/><BR/>It goes back to what I wrote earlier, that we try to have a lex credendi without a lex orandi, hoping for the best. Ideally, an agreement in confession (lex orandi) coupled with an attitude that pastors are stewards of the liturgy and not its masters to do with it as they please should bring us to some sort of voluntary consensus regarding WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-5338550934466601722007-05-22T15:58:00.000-07:002007-05-22T15:58:00.000-07:00I'll endeavor to respond to Mike's cogent comments...I'll endeavor to respond to Mike's cogent comments, focusing on this statement of his:<BR/><BR/>"Red hymnals, blue hymnals, LSB, etc, etc. There is alot of variety out there, but does that make it lack unity? I've seen all kinds of options and methods for carrying out the Divine Service, but it is all familiar and recognizable. When it all carries the same refreshing gospel without error or WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-89847199445711246402007-05-21T14:19:00.000-07:002007-05-21T14:19:00.000-07:00This may be the most ignorant layman comment ever,...This may be the most ignorant layman comment ever, but I'm always looking to outdo myself with each new post:<BR/><BR/>I am trying to wrap my brain around the definition of "unity" when it is applied to practice.<BR/><BR/>When we speak about "unity" in terms of doctrine we have a confessional model to measure everything against. If you step out of the confession on any point, then you are no Mike Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09202275259518132834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-91961473219250128752007-05-21T11:47:00.000-07:002007-05-21T11:47:00.000-07:00I was hoping Bryce wasn't done with this conversat...I was hoping Bryce wasn't done with this conversation. I have some thoughts, but I'd like to hear some others and how they would address Bryce's well-thought concerns.William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-60712800822028985872007-05-21T10:54:00.000-07:002007-05-21T10:54:00.000-07:00Posted for Pastor Bryce Wandrey:Part of this whole...Posted for Pastor Bryce Wandrey:<BR/><BR/>Part of this whole "Church Ceremony" issue, is wrapped up in the whole "Church Polity" issue. Other ecclesial communions have in place, normally via something like canon law, regulations that state that a congregation must celebrate the Eucharist as a main service every Sunday, must use prescribed liturgical rites and services, must use approved creeds Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-65105251437553340612007-05-21T08:15:00.000-07:002007-05-21T08:15:00.000-07:00Rev. Gerlach, thanks for your additional post. I u...Rev. Gerlach, thanks for your additional post. I understand what you are saying now better. It is interesting to note that your comments had to do more with what the choir was doing with various parts of the ordo. That is a very good point and underscores the valuable point that there is, within the liturgy, more than enough room for tremendous variety and creativity and it is, in fact, the very Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-7363742208424565022007-05-20T17:16:00.000-07:002007-05-20T17:16:00.000-07:00Oh, time for an LSB commercial!!!Teaching the litu...Oh, time for an LSB commercial!!!<BR/><BR/>Teaching the liturgy - man is that EASY with LSB. The wonderful Scripture references right alongside the texts. Words that might be difficult explained (what does Sabaoth mean anyway, you might wonder, and a glance to the bottom of the page tells you: "Hebrew for 'heavenly hosts'"). A glossary of liturgical terms right up front and not buried in theWilliam Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-28723652914334521972007-05-20T16:40:00.000-07:002007-05-20T16:40:00.000-07:00So many comments and questions growing out of my p...So many comments and questions growing out of my posts Friday afternoon. I confess that in my vocations of father, husband, gardener, organist, et alia - I didn't have time for various responses until later Sunday. Here are some clarifications.<BR/><BR/>ONE<BR/><BR/>Cwirla - May 18 3:54am:<BR/>“I don't see how what I wrote regarding the diversity of ways in doing the same rite reflects the Bryan Gerlachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05884737846629642414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-72172151010381426632007-05-20T12:52:00.000-07:002007-05-20T12:52:00.000-07:00Comment submitted by Pastor Andrew Green, edited:I...Comment submitted by Pastor Andrew Green, edited:<BR/><BR/>I appreciate all that has been said thus far, much of which has enrcihed my understanding and use of the liturgy. However, may I point out one important aspect of any conversation on this topic that has not yet been raised (or at least was missed in my reading of this). The issue is one of growth. Perhaps, Pr. McCain implied this in his Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-67757540515420276812007-05-19T20:56:00.000-07:002007-05-19T20:56:00.000-07:00Liturgical discipline is something I'm afraid can'...Liturgical discipline is something I'm afraid can't be taught by distance learning and all the various ways we have of imparting information. It is more habitus than knowledge.<BR/><BR/>Brother Weedon is right on the money - it is learned in the school of experience. I credit singing in the St. Louis sem chorus under Henry Gerike and the experience of praying and leading Evening Prayer and WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-23197664333972289412007-05-19T17:20:00.000-07:002007-05-19T17:20:00.000-07:00Ah, and why did they not understand it? The answe...Ah, and why did they not understand it? The answer to that, I believe, is that our seminaries fail singularly at providing - NOT classes on liturgics (ugh!) - but liturgical experience. <BR/><BR/>Rumor is that the Fort does a bit better than St. Louis, but when I was at St. Louis (granted, many, many moons ago), the liturgical life was non-existent. I mean, there was no life of prayer, no William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-56919501475193774982007-05-19T16:53:00.000-07:002007-05-19T16:53:00.000-07:00I appreciate the analogy about dancing. That's why...I appreciate the analogy about dancing. That's why the "do it yourself" liturgies drive me up the wall, from a purely non-theological point of view. In my experience, everytime I run into these "hot off the printer" liturgies, I am so distracted trying to pay attention to what's coming next, I find that I can't focus on what I'm actually doing, or supposed to be doing, or hearing. Trying to make Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-91777230670753281352007-05-19T09:17:00.000-07:002007-05-19T09:17:00.000-07:00Indeed. And an important thing to note: those pa...Indeed. And an important thing to note: those parishes that vary the TEXT week by week of the basic framework of the ordinary thereby instantly disinherit the non-readers, above all the little children. I wish you could hear the little ones belt out the ordinary at St. Paul's! They know it. It's THEIR service. They may not be able to sing all the hymns, but when they come to the parts that William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-32389609254257162502007-05-19T08:57:00.000-07:002007-05-19T08:57:00.000-07:00William, ok, yes, if that is what Rev. Gerlach mea...William, ok, yes, if that is what Rev. Gerlach means to suggest with his reference to "settings" I would also concur. If however we are talking about one parish using the Creed and another using a "statement of faith" that the pastor concocts each week on his computer. I do not see how this is anything helpful for the unity of the Church.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-6916182064848241492007-05-19T06:26:00.000-07:002007-05-19T06:26:00.000-07:00Ah, William. My heart was with the SBH model also...Ah, William. My heart was with the SBH model also. But I do know it was not the approach of the Lutheran Church in Orthodoxy, which is neither here nor there. <BR/><BR/>Stiller's book on Leipzig gives us some idea of what happened. The key is that in that period the people really were not expected to participate in the singing of the Ordinary! Instead, they had their prayer books: "Prayer William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-51319529880473562592007-05-19T06:15:00.000-07:002007-05-19T06:15:00.000-07:00Interesting thoughts, William. On the liturgy sub...Interesting thoughts, William. On the liturgy subcommittee for LSB, some of us (myself included) supported the "SBH" model of one text with several musical settings. The reality came clear that this was not possible, and may not even be desireable.<BR/><BR/>Of the 151 settings of the Mass in the 17th c., I wonder how many were used in the average congregation. Or were there 151 settings among WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-57845391789501329932007-05-19T05:25:00.000-07:002007-05-19T05:25:00.000-07:00On settings and such, I do think that it would be ...On settings and such, I do think that it would be wrong for us to imagine that the fixed text of the traditional Western rite is what Lutherans were after across the board. It was the cantus firmus on which they then played their improvisations. The "Creed" to them did certainly mean FIRST the Latin "Credo" of the Nicene. But they also called Luther's paraphrase (built, by the way, as Jon William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-85927137436178604262007-05-18T22:49:00.000-07:002007-05-18T22:49:00.000-07:00McCain hits a nail on the head. the divine service...McCain hits a nail on the head. the divine service cant really be "evangelistic" in the sense that he uses that word in his context. <BR/><BR/>At the same time it MUST BE evangelistic in the sense that there are not TWO gospels to be presented by the church. one for outside and one for inside. Good Liturgy is all about true worship which is ALL about faith in Jesus Christ. which is all about Frank Sonnekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18119302543437442204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-24556175317143047342007-05-18T22:19:00.000-07:002007-05-18T22:19:00.000-07:00Rev. Gerlach observes: during the 17th century alo...Rev. Gerlach observes: during the 17th century alone 151 Latin settings of the liturgy<BR/><BR/><BR/>That may certainly be true, but they were settings, not rewritings of the liturgy. I would strongly suspect that one would find nearly identical wording in all those settings. This, to me, is quite a different thing from one Lutheran congregation using the texts of the Western Mass, as reformed byRev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-18383706336578550492007-05-18T21:57:00.000-07:002007-05-18T21:57:00.000-07:00I can find no evidence in Holy Scripture that the ...I can find no evidence in Holy Scripture that the congregation's worship service was ever intended to be evangelistic, that is, intended to be used to "attract" unbelievers. I think this is an assumption being made today that has had very unfortunate negative consequences for the worship of our congregations. Designing the worship service to make unbelievers feel "comfortable" or "at ease" or Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-19158046879146037302007-05-18T20:35:00.000-07:002007-05-18T20:35:00.000-07:00"Reverence and awe." I love that verse from Hebre..."Reverence and awe." I love that verse from Hebrews. That's what is missing in much of the push to be "relevent," "missional" (another word for which we need a moratorium) and "seeker sensitive." It's the "let all mortal flesh keep silence and with fear and trembling stand" take off your shoes (not put up your feet) you're on holy ground sort of thing.<BR/><BR/>There is something terribly WM Cwirlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317197804776939257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-62437108838577388582007-05-18T18:13:00.000-07:002007-05-18T18:13:00.000-07:00Yes! I blogged on that a while ago: Confusing th...Yes! I blogged on that a while ago: Confusing the How with the WHAT.<BR/><BR/>I'm speaking of mission, specifically the mission of Christ's Church. Ask people what the mission of the Church is and the typical answer is: "to spread the Gospel." But that is incorrect. That's HOW the Church accomplishes her mission. It is not the mission itself. WHAT is the mission? Nothing less than rescuing William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19071531712378916.post-52906948433191331072007-05-18T17:51:00.000-07:002007-05-18T17:51:00.000-07:00Put me down too as one who eschews, despises and d...Put me down too as one who eschews, despises and disdains the distinction: "traditional" and "contemporary." When is worship ever not contemporary? It is, finally, truly non-sense.<BR/><BR/>In fact, the use of the distinction is based on pejorative tendencies toward the liturgy, since the implication is quite clearly intended to be made that "traditional" means, "no relevant and of little meaningRev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.com